Prosperity Tithing

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Prosperity Tithing

Post by mjtorrence on Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:00 pm

I have a question that has been on my mind, If we as Christians who are saved by the blood of Jesus, and Jesus came to abolish the old law, and we are not under the law but saved by grace, then why do Pastors still preach the importance of the tithe? It states in 2Corn 9:7 You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don't give reluctantly or in response to pressure. "For God loves a person who gives cheerfully." scratching chin

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by Cholette on Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:40 pm

Well, tithing is BEFORE the law. Abraham tithed and he was before the law of Moses.

I don't believe in a person being cursed because they don't tithe because Jesus became the curse for us. I do believe that when you worship the Lord with the first 10% of your income, there is something so worshipful about it.

MJ, I also believe that each person needs to go to God for himself. We have to be very careful when money is taught in the pulpits today because a lot of it is for selfish gain. I hate saying that, but I've seen first hand wha happens behind closed doors and its not pretty. There was a season where I didn't tithe because I wanted to LEARN for myself what it is to tithe and what God said about it before I just did it because someone told me I HAD TO. During that time, I wasn't struck down...I wasn't poor...nothing happened to me. Once I learned about tithing and that it's a form of WORSHIP to the Lord, I began to do it and I'm OVERLY blessed.

I don't tithe to GET BLESSED...I give because I WANT God to have the first portion of my paycheck because it's because of HIM that I have one in the first place.

God doesn't MAKE us do anything...he gives us a plan to better our lives, but doesn't penalize us for not choosing the better way...that's UNCONDITIONAL LOVE!!

My response to your question is how God has taught ME. Others may have their own way of responding to your question, but for me and God...this is working. Never, never, never allow anyone to pressure you to do ANYTHING...because that isn't God. I hope this helps you!


Do not fight FOR victory, but fight FROM THE PLACE of victory. Jesus has ALREADY won the battle!

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by dreamster on Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:55 am

grt reply C,,, ,,um mj,, ive said exactly wat uve said,, an i feel u totaly on this,, im still coming 2 terms wiv sum things but consider ur giveing as an act of wership jus between u an tha lord,, ,,, wer ur heart is ther ur treasure will also be,, ,,, if ur in a grt church thats doin the stuff of the gospel u shood be able 2 give as ur hearts desires,, ,,,b/D

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by Delightful soul on Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:43 am

the new testament church gave all they owned when you look at it, so a tenth is really a small amount to give........I see it as cheap taxes. I remember at a conference i got hit with this insatiable urge to throw all my money in the tithing bucket. Giving should be a joy.,and if it's not then don't do it.......we all have to answer to God personally. REally Jesus tithed his whole life, not ten percent and I am really grateful.......so how much should I give???????and should I be mad and suspicious of others who teach me to sacrifice what is God's anyways???

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by mjtorrence on Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:11 pm

God doesn't MAKE us do anything...he gives us a plan to better our lives, but doesn't penalize us for not choosing the better way...that's UNCONDITIONAL LOVE!! I like that you said this Cholette yet today this is what my Pastor said to the congreation that if you don't tithe or give that God will not bless you sigh if ur in a grt church thats doin the stuff of the gospel u shood be able 2 give as ur hearts desires,, thank you for this dreamster this is very true yet in my church this tithing thing is a big big deal and constantly said every service that if we don't tithe or give we will be cursed tornado Giving should be a joy. Yes our giving should be cheerfully and joyfully not because someone is constantly battering us to give and give. I am not one that is making a fuss about tithing cause we are tithers and givers its just that I dont see the importance of keep preaching about it every service. As for instance the holy spirit spoke not only to me but to my husband too one service to give a thousand dollars so we did it without hestation and you know what the Pastor got up the next Sun and said just because you gave that money you can't buy a blessing what first of all we were not in the least trying to buy something that we know we can't second we heard the holy spirit say give and we obeyed and thirdly after that I said I wouldn't give any more to anything

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by Cholette on Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:02 pm

WOW! I'm so sorry MJ...I really am. It's really sad but a lot of churches are preaching on money because the revenue is probably going down, due to the economy and people are losing their jobs. Instead of the pastor trusting in God to provide and send increase to the church, they are in the pulpit getting on the people to tithe. It's not ALL of the churches...let me make that clear, but I've heard your story a lot lately and I'm saddened by that.

I would admonish you to NOT stop giving because the same way you and your husband obeyed God and gave the offering, he will speak and tell you again to give. You are NOT giving to the church, so to speak...you are obeying God. Don't let what your pastor said stop you from being a blessing. We are BLESSED to be a blessing and NO MAN should be able to stop you from being a blessing.

Your pastor sounds like he's operating in a little fear right now. Just pray for him and ask the Lord to minister to his heart in this season. Pastor's are learning, in this season, that they need to trust God in the same way they've been teaching us to do.

I've prayed for your church!!!


Do not fight FOR victory, but fight FROM THE PLACE of victory. Jesus has ALREADY won the battle!

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by dreamster on Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:55 pm

m/j ive been wher u r rite now had tha same message werd 4 werd,, even werse,, i had 2 leave that ch,, becos of control an legalism,, i kno churchs hav become money hungry monsters 2 maintain all manner of things,, i suggest if ur not comfy/happy wher u r ,, u shood consider moveing, ,,D

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by mjtorrence on Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:04 pm

Thank you dreamster and cholette for praying for the church, what I meant to say is when they ask for money for other things such as trips and be a blessing to others in the church I will not give because I feel like that was very rude thing to say to me and my husband when we were obeying God and when we give we do not give selfishly we give because it brings joy to our heart to give because God has been so good to us and has blessed us richly crying

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by dreamster on Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:49 pm

hmmm um ok, well i wood jus askthe lord wat u shood give,,dont be manipulated or guilt driven 2 give thats jus plain carnel flesh,, let peace be ur umpire in ALLTHANGS ,, D

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by Delightful soul on Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:36 am

I want to put a spanner in the works here by saying, that perhaps if we are called to a church, we should be a blessing no matter what is preached. Touch not God's anointed i have heard in His word and also remember what happened to Miriam when she judged Moses...not that I am saying anything bad will happen, but thing is, if you are not happy with where you are, then pray and seek God about whether you should be there. If you find you are not meant to be, go in peace. But if God has you there and wants you to stay, then stay and be of good cheer. Jesus has overcome the world and really. I feel for your frustration, but I really believe that tithing is a principle that if we follow, God will open the heavens and pour out a blessing as written in Malachi. In fact if we give to God then what others say should not matter. MJ don't worry about what your leaders are doing or saying. Pray for them and lift them up. I understand how hard it is when you have been hurt. I have had issues with my leaders on and off and God is showing me more and more , that if I judge them, it really is none of my business and also even if they are in the wrong, our position should be to uplift them in prayer and go on acting as we know Jesus is calling us to, in forgiveness and love. Love believes the best, hopes all things, believes all things and never gives up. I would not give unless God tells me to. If your pastor is telling you to tithe , then don't just do what He says, look up the scriptures he is teaching you on and then find out for yourself. You are accountable for your own actions, the pastor is accountable for delivering the word correctly and if he is wrong, then walk away if this is what you feel in your heart of hearts....but don't stay and judge the pastor for sinning if he has, it is not our job. Trust me MJ, I have paid a hefty price for complaining about leaders and I am now in a place where I daren't touch His leaders, they have a heavier burden and accountability to God without them being accountable to us to.....we are all accountable to God.


I would get in a quiet place and ask God what He thinks of the whole situation and ask Him where you are meant to be. He will not put you under a pastor whom is teaching error, unless ofcourse you think they are in error when maybe they are not and God wants to change your heart. It is either or, no inbetweens if you get my meaning.


I really hope you understand what I am trying to say here. It's a hard pill but I pray you find this word in peace as it is sent.


Blessings

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by Virtuous on Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:21 am

Jesus didnít come to abolish the law. He came to fulfill it. No, we are no longer under the law but under grace which is good because if we were under the law, we would all be dead. Not just because of not being tithers, but everything else as well. Itís the principle of tithing just as it is the principle of the law. God fulfilled the law when He died because thatís what the law stated shouldíve happened. Thatís what He fulfilled. He fulfilled DEATH of the law for our sins. You have to look at what the law was about things. He didnít get rid of (abolish) the law of the thing; He DIED to fulfill the results of what was/is suppose to happen of not doing it. Where do you think we would all be if we died under the curse of the law? Weíd go straight to hell. His death to fulfill the law is more for our spiritual being because we are not perfect.

Yes, tithes were before the law. If it was before the law, and if we look at we are no longer under the law, tithing shouldnít be included if it was before the law. Are we not suppose to follow the law because we are under grace? Is the law fulfilled or is it just that the law of tithing fulfilled? Tithing was after the law as well. The Pharisees tithed in the New Testament. Itís mentioned in one of the Gospels that I know of. I think itís Luke? They were actually getting scolded because they made sure they tithed but they werenít doing any of the other things toward/with/for the people. They were told it was good to tithe but donítí forget to do those other things too.

I believe the curse of the law came along with the curse of the ground when Adam and Eve sinned. There is no way Adam and Eve (in their sin) couldíve stood on a holy ground so God HAD to curse the ground. Thereís no way a holy people (which God knew He was going to send His Son to save) couldíve stood up without a hope of freedom of living under this curse so He had to send Jesus to fulfill the law that would put us under grace. We couldnít have made it because we are a sinful people therefore we need grace to protect us from the law. The law is still there.

People are not looking at the principles or even being taught the principles of tithing. THATíS the problem. We all talk about putting God first in every area of our lives. ..UNLESS money is involved. I donít tithe because Iím afraid of being cursed with a curse. I tithe to honor God with the first fruit (the best) of my income because it is He who gives me power to get wealth and because I love Him. I do it out of obedience.

Cholette is right. God is NOT GOING TO MAKE you give. He doesnít have to. For every person who wonít give; thereís one or MORE who will willingly give.

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by lola21st on Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:01 pm

I agree with everything that's been already stated and just want to encourage you to continue giving as prompted by the Holy Spirit. What that pastor is teaching is incorrect and inappropriate (which is why it's important to study the Word on our own so that we can identify bad teaching when it surfaces) and he will be held accountable to the Lord so pray for him that he sees the error in his teaching and changes his ways accordingly.

Don't let this situation prevent you and your husband from continuing to be good stewards of God's money. Not necessarily saying that you should or shouldn't continue giving to that church, I'm just saying don't allow your anger/displeasure over the situation to cause you to make decisions that would grieve the Holy Spirit. Keep seeking the Lord on this matter and do what He says, not what the pastor says. So if there are offerings that are announced and you two don't feel that the Holy Spirit is leading you to contribute, then don't. But don't hold back if you get that prompting from the Holy Spirit, EVEN if it benefits the pastor.

I've heard of this happening more as well these days and even my pastor has incorporated this into his messages but I continue to give as I believe the Lord is directing me. flower

:offtopic:

Going on a tangent here, I'm also noticing it more on television with televangelists who are suggesting that with a seed offering of $1,000 USD (just one example), people who donate at least that level of money will see amazing things manifest in their lives and the miracles will begin within a couple of weeks. They even tell the viewing audience to go ahead and put the amount on their credit card... duh This is the group that also works my tithes and offerings nerves - I have a problem with them telling people to get into debt to send them an offering when the Lord is so against debt. sigh

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by dreamster on Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:11 pm

bible says wer 2 lend not borrow,, boy thers nuthing like a money topik 2 get things goin

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by mjtorrence on Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Delightful Soul thank you for your response I am not complaining or even talking about the Pastors and I don't believe I am no ways to be compared to Miriam as I am not complaining I am just speaking about any Pastors that are constantly saying to their congregation that if they dont give or tithe they will be cursed and receive no blessing from God, I am not standing in the gap judging anyone I am just putting a topic out there and giving a example of what my experience has been and yes I have heard that scripture before all I was saying is we did what the holy spirit told us to do and we didn't do it publicly we did it in private so as not to bring attention to ourselves and openly we get rebuked for what for listening and being obedient. My question was about the constantly asking for money and also saying if you don't tithe or give you won't be blessed no where in the bible does it say this, also I am not angry or frustrated I believe that I was just hurt that this would be said to us there is no way we would ever think of buying a blessing. sorry i\\'m sorry

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by lola21st on Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:34 pm

mjtorrence wrote:I am not standing in the gap judging anyone I am just putting a topic out there and giving a example of what my experience has been and yes I have heard that scripture before all I was saying is we did what the holy spirit told us to do and we didn't do it publicly we did it in private so as not to bring attention to ourselves and openly we get rebuked for what for listening and being obedient.

What?? I missed this part before...you were openly rebuked?! wow sigh Ugh, our leaders need prayer.... i\\'m sorry He totally missed it....Is everything else ok otherwise at that church?

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by mjtorrence on Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:01 pm

Yes we were openly told that we couldnt buy a blessing crying that is something we would never do

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by dreamster on Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:04 pm

,well id be gone by now,,ther r serious issues ther m/j, but up 2 u swty,

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by Delightful soul on Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:51 am

MJ, sounds like you should follow your heart on this one and perhaps ask God if He wants you to leave or stay.

I personally believe that the opposite of a blessing IS a curse. So if Malachi says if we tithe God will open the heavens and pour out a blessing, then we will be blessed, not cursed. Also in Deuteronomy 28 it speaks about what leads to blessing and then cursing I believe.

Malachi 3:8-12 below


Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.


Mal 3:9 Ye [are] cursed with a curse : for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation.


Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse , that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing , that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].


Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.


Mal 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed : for ye shall be a delightsome land , saith the LORD of hosts.

[quote]

If you read Virtuous comments, Jesus did not come to do away with the law and so tithing brings blessing and not tithing is like robbing God.

This is the word.

But ultimately you have to do what you feel lead to do.

I just don't like to see pastors or leaders defamed where ever it is. And once i had looked at the scriptures, i had to agree that your pastor may be right, although I was not there and was not able to know exactly what went on.

Like Dreamster has said, it is an interesting topic and really I feel this place is not a place to bad mouth anyone, televangelists or pastors or eachother so I pray for peace on here and that this place be a place of edification.


Bless you MJ and I hope that you find peace in your place of worship and if not that God would lead you to a place where you will find agreement and blessing...


DS


Last edited by Delightful soul on Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:56 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : took out lexicon number references of scripture quote)

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by Cholette on Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:19 pm

The scripture that says "touch not my anointed" is not just about preachers...that's out of context. We are ALL God's anointed and no one is bigger and higher up than the next. It's just that some people have more visable positions and assignments.

I agree that we should not defame pastors and leaders, but we shouldn't defame ANYONE...not just them. We have put our leaders on a pedestal where they do not belong...they are servants, just like we all are...to bring Jesus to a dying world.

The curse has been absorbed in the body of Christ when He hung on the cross. That's what it means when it says Jesus came to FULFILL the law. All of what we deserve was placed on the body of Christ.

What I believe happens when we don't tithe is that we don't experience all that God desires for us to experience. Nothing bad happens...it's just that we don't experience HIS BEST...the abundant life that he desires for us. We will always BE BLESSED because we are in Christ...but there are measures of blessings...30,60 and 100 fold.

God knows where each one of us are. We all mature at different stages. To say that we are punished because we don't tithe, when a person just may not have the revelation on tithing yet is wrong. God wouldn't do that. We tithe from the heart and God knows a person who is just giving 10% in money from who his giving 10% with his heart. The amount on the line on the offering envelope doesn't determine a tither. God sees the HEART of man.

To go back to your original question MJ...and to reinterate what I said before...go with God! You and your husband seem to have a heart for God and that you are givers. Continue in that...no matter what!!!


Do not fight FOR victory, but fight FROM THE PLACE of victory. Jesus has ALREADY won the battle!

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by Virtuous on Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:23 pm

We tithe from the heart and God knows a person who is just giving 10% in money from who his giving 10% with his heart. The amount on the line on the offering envelope doesn't determine a tither. God sees the HEART of man.

Whatcha say, whatcha say, What-you-say!!!! happy dance You got that right. Just ask the Shunamite(sp) woman who gave her last mite. HEY, God. Glory! Keep in mind this woman is alive and well today in some shape, form or fashion. I know because I have been her at times in giving. THATíS WHY what Cholette said about the amount on the line on the offering envelope is soooooooo true! Uh, oh...!!! woo hoo

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by dreamster on Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:52 pm

flower u cant argue wiv sistaC ,,she got it goin on,, D

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by mjtorrence on Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:58 pm

Thanks everyone for your help and feed back huggins

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by Delightful soul on Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:17 pm

I guess this is a hot topic.

Why are certain scriptures ignored over the grace message?

Seems like we tiptoe around it alot when the facts are straight;

Malachi 3:8-12 below


Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.


Mal 3:9 Ye [are] cursed with a curse : for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation.


Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse , that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing , that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].

I guess this is where I stand and I am a bit disheartened to think that so many of us, would rather talk about grace than our responsibilities of giving God what is due Him.

Grace is there for us, but if we continue in sin ( and according to malachi if we do not tithe we are 'robbers' which is a sin) there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin.


I'm sorry to offend and this has nothing to do with you MJ.

I am just really wanting to see Holiness displayed here. Where is the truth? Sometimes the truth stings but the facts are Grace is there not to be abused.

I once was tempted to spend my tithe and I said to God that I needed a jumper. I was out in the city it had suddenly turned cold and so i went in to the shop to buy a warm top with my tithe money. I kid you not the checkout lady charged me $3 for the top. I did not have to spend my tithe. I guess this is where I am at.

I really believe in the umpteen dozen scriptures that talk about tithing and offering being a part of obedience.
The law also states that we should not murder, or steal or lie etc, so does that mean with grace we should do these things too?

Grace is there for mistakes and for mercy when we fail but when we have knowlege we are accountable to follow His word and not use grace as an excuse to sin.

I happen to believe that His anointed is just that, people who walk in the authority and power of God. But I also feel that leaders are accountable to God and that there is a greater responsibility on them. So if we judge them, we are guilty of touching His anointed......1 Ch 16:22 and Ps 105:15 both say also not to harm the prophets. IF this was referring to all of us, then why did God specify the prophets too. If anointed is everyone, then wouldn't prophets be anointed too? This IS TALKING ABOUT LEADERS.

I really pray that the grace message be preached with balance and not used to water down the convicting power of the word.


You can tell I am strong about this. Simply because I know there are consequences for action and I love the word more than I do, words that simply sound nice.

Thankyou for bringing this up MJ, cause it really has made me look into the word more and find out for myself what I believe and why I believe what I believe.


Sorry If I have offended anyone, but I do not want to offend the Holiness of the scriptures or my Lord and I really feel the grace message being lifted up here is not the appropriate avenue when dealing with matters on whether there are curses or not according to the bible. Facts are if we sin and do not repent, curses are on us in my opinion.


But that is my opinion and I feel it had to be expressed.


scratching chin

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by dreamster on Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:06 pm

i dont kno a single beleaver who hasnt sined afta being saved , so by ur applikation of scripture ther remains no more sacrifice 4 those ppl, therfore heaven will be empty, titheing became law in the old testiment,, if ur gonna live that way u hav2 obey all of it, so ur obliged 2 do all the other offerings aswell, ,,its funny how u only here ppl preach on thighing ,, wen u ask about anutha old testiment area they say ohh we dont need 2 do that ,,its old testiment,, im not against thighing, but i dont see it as an absolute in the new testiment,, more that ppl gave according 2 ther means,,

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Re: Prosperity Tithing

Post by Delightful soul on Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:19 am

Yes we have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, but does that mean the murderer continue in their sin, does that mean the liar continue lying? I'm not saying that we should live by the law but rather live by love which completes the law. Tithing should be MORE THAN 10% offerings should be MORE THAN this if we live by love. Like I said in my first post, the new testament church, sold all they had, pooled their resources and gave to the needy............I am as much in need of correction and change for this COmmand to love one another as we all are.

I am just stating that there are curses for sin, plain and simple. If we turn to Jesus and repent, and go sin no more, then we will LOVE more , give more, have more and be blessed.

Anyhow, it also talks about not arguing, so before this turns into one...i shall say this;

The body is HUUUGGGE we all our our differences of opinion and to argue is not going to get us much. I just did not want this to be another bagging session about pastors and televangelists cause being critical gets people into sticky arguments......


Peace all. and let us all give as we purpose in our hearts with cheer. Whatever that may be. For me it is something I have found in malachi, for others it may be found in other scriptures. WE are all accountable on the day of the Lord to account for what we believe.


Peace.

Delightful soul
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Re: Prosperity Tithing

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